Starting my 72t in 2018
L1: Starting my 72t in 2018
Trying to craft a penalty and headache free 72t.
My DOB: 9/12/1964
Spouse DOB: 3/26/1970
Planned retirement date: 5/8/2018
I will use my Vanguard 401K account balance of $316,571.13 (today) for 72t purposes. The 401K was from my previous employer. I am adding no funds to it since it is closed for new investments. I have an additional $14,487 in Vanguard Roth accounts.
My question is about timing of first/last payments and what statement should I use to establish a base for calculations. Even after using the calculator I’m still a bit hesitant. Can I start on 6/5/2018 and take a partial for 2018? Is that a good idea? I probably can use the full year amount and set aside. When should it end and for what amount? The obvious answer to me is 59.5; but I am paranoid about making a dumb move. I am using a rate of 3.27 from your calculator.
Thanks in advance- this forum is fantastic and I love reading other’s people postings and your responses!
2018-04-04 02:14, By: RickyRod1, IP: [188.8.131.52]
L2: Starting my 72t in 2018
You will be 55 on 9/12/2019. If you are employed by a company with a 401-K which allows you to take partial distributions whenever you want, then you could start taking distributions without any 10% penalty for early distribution as early as January of 2019. You stated that your 401-K is from a former employer who has allowed you to keep your account there. If you found another employer until next January who would allow you to do a trustee-to-trustee TRANSFER, then you could retire from that company in 2019, and aoid needing a SEPP 72-T at all. Another approach is to set up your own company, set up a solo 401-K, and TRANSFER your 401-K to that plan until next year.
If none of these are options, you will be 59 1/2 on 3/12/2024. The SEPP 72-T cannot end before that date. If you start it at any time in 2018, that will still be the end date because a SEPP 72-T must last to the later of 60 months or age 59 1/2.
In the first calendar year, you can take either 100% of the ANNUAL amount, or a prorated amount based upon what month you start it in. You should determine your tax situatifor 2018, and ideally how much you can take as a distribution in the 12% tax bracket.
You can use any month-end balance within 6 months of your start date. I’m not sure where you are getting the 3.27% interest rate for your calculation.
I recommend that you hire an experienced tax professional or financial planner to guide you through all of these possibilities.
2018-04-04 04:17, By: dlzallestaxes, IP: [184.108.40.206]
L3: Starting my 72t in 2018
Thanks for your response. Waiting until 2019 is not really an option at this point; but it could be a consideration. My desire is to stat it this year and use a combination of SEPP and personal savings to get the target amount.The 3.27% comes from the 72t website. See below from today’s information.
The interest rate that may be used is any interest rate that is not more than 120 percent of the federal mid-term rate for either of the two months immediately preceding the month in which the first distribution begins.
Maximum Interest Rates for 72(t) & 72(q) SEPP Planswhere the initial distribution occurs during the following time periods:
?04/01/2018 to 04/30/2018:3.08%
?05/01/2018 to 05/31/2018:3.27%
?06/01/2018 to 06/30/2018:3.27%
2018-04-04 16:31, By: Rickyrod1, IP: [220.127.116.11]
L4: Starting my 72t in 2018
wow. I’ve been busy with taxes, and the new tax law. I haven’t been following these interest rates.
2018-04-04 16:35, By: dlzallestaxes, IP: [18.104.22.168]
L5: Starting my 72t in 2018
Busy on taxes is understandable at this time! I am trying to find an professional and an estimated cost for setting this up. I happen to be in Texas. I am having an exploratory session withStuart J. Spivak, LUTCF from 72tprofessor dot com. I read that he charges $1,500 on one of the forum’s posting and the reaction was that the fee was too much. Pretty crazy how hard is to find someone in my area.
2018-04-04 16:48, By: Rickyrod1, IP: [22.214.171.124]
L6: Starting my 72t in 2018
I sympathize for you. I have been at tax conferences, and when I mention SEPP 72-T and NUA, the speakers look at me like I’m an alien from Mars.
I agree that $ 1,500 to set up a SEPP 72-T is too much for the limited amount of work involved. Most of the responders on this website can do the calculations and planning in less than an hour, and often in less than 30 minutes.
There is value to expertise, but how much is too much ?
2018-04-04 17:02, By: dlzallestaxes, IP: [126.96.36.199]
L7: Starting my 72t in 2018
So much agree with you! It’s such a great tool and the knowledge level is so low in the profesional community. I have not problem using a reputable calculator to determine my numbers; but I do prefer to have another pair of eyes looking at the numbers and payment schedule and dates to avoid a nasty surprise. I used the 72t website calculator today and came with the below:
SEPP Plan Assumptions
Total IRA Accounts
SEPP Plan Account
SEPP Interest Rate
Investment Interest Rate
1st Distribution Date
Date Age 59.5
5 Year Date
1st Modification Date
Minimum Distribution Method
Initial SEPP Payment
Year-By-Year Analysis of SEPP Values
IRA Value Allocated to SEPP Plan: $318,897
2018-04-04 17:23, By: Rickyrod1, IP: [188.8.131.52]
L8: Starting my 72t in 2018
Your calcs look correct. The increasing interest rates now generate a payment of 5% of the account balance, at least at your age. It wasn’t clear if you intended to do a direct rollover to an IRA as generally recommended, or to take your SEPP distributions directly from the 401k plan. This is riskier since you have limited control of the 401k, and in fact may not have yet confirmed if the plan even allows you to take periodic partial distributions.
If you do the IRA rollover, your opening balance must be an IRA balance, not a 401k balance, and you must be sure that the plan is totally distributed and there is no dividend yet to be paid which would bust your plan if you had already taken a distribution. To eliminate this risk, you can either way about 60 days before taking your first SEPP distribution, or you could set up a second IRA account and transfer the main rollover to the second IRA account before starting your SEPP. That way any dividend will end up in the IRA that received the main rollover and will not be transferred into your IRA for the SEPP.
2018-04-04 21:31, By: Alan S, IP: [184.108.40.206]
L9: Starting my 72t in 2018
Thanks for your thoughtful response! My plan was to draw the SEPPs straight out of my Vanguard 401K account I have with my previous employer. If they have any restrictions, I was willing to convert my 401K into a Vanguard IRA and then do the SEPP. Your comments on having a waiting period to avoid a bust are a great watch out! I spoke with Steve from the 72tProfessor website; but it seems like they are more interested on getting my funds transferred to them so they can manage them as part of doing the 72t setup. No dice! I like my Vanguard fee structure and results. I wish I could just find a financial advisor or CPA that just do the calculation and payment structure (amounts and dates) and I can execute that and move on!
2018-04-04 22:10, By: Rickyrod1, IP: [220.127.116.11]
L10: Starting my 72t in 2018
The challenge is that 90% of them are not up to speed, and you already know more than most of them. I think you can save your money.
As for payment structure, once you know the annual amount you can either take the full annual or pro rate the first year by the month started. If you want periodic distributions, use a date between the 5th and 20th of the month to avoid year end holiday problems. Keep track of your distributions and double check the total immediately after your last distribution so there is time to make needed corrections. You can change the frequency within the year or from year to year. Only the final 1099R amount matters, and that must be spot on. These plans are between you and the IRS, but the limited support you might get from the distributing plan would be better from an IRA.
2018-04-05 01:00, By: Alan S, IP: [18.104.22.168]
L11: Starting my 72t in 2018
Thanks Alan! So in essence, if I take my first SEPP draw on June 1, 2018 and the last onJanuary 5, 2023 for $16,079.05 (and the same amount every year for 6 years) I should be fine?Do I have to take one last draw byMarch 12,2024 or at any moment in 2024?Seems like it is best not to worry at prorating to keep it simple. I also like the idea of taking the annual amount at the beginning of the year leaving plenty of time for adjustments if needed. Below is what I put together as a potential schedule based on the 72t dot net calculator.Any recommendations and/or comments? Once again – thank you!!!!
2018-04-05 02:13, By: Rickyrod1, IP: [22.214.171.124]
L12: Starting my 72t in 2018
I would wait until after you are 59 1/2 in 2024. Your plan terminates at that point, and you can take any amount from -0- to the fund balance after that. You would do appropriate tax and financial planning then, as well as Social Security planning and ROTH Conversions. I call this PLANNING DURING RETIREMENT.
You just saved yourself $ 1,500 !!!
You did such a good job you can go into business as a SEPP 72-T consultant in your area of Texas !!
2018-04-05 02:21, By: dlzallestaxes, IP: [126.96.36.199]
L13: Starting my 72t in 2018
Thanks a lotdlzallestaxes!
So, to sum it up, in 2024 there is no obligation to draw anything unless I want to (which I probably do). No need to prorate any amount between Jan 1, 2024 and March 12, 2014? I like that!
2018-04-05 02:56, By: Rickyrod1, IP: [188.8.131.52]
L14: Starting my 72t in 2018
I would wait until April 2024 for any distributions, just so there is no confusion as to the code on the 1099-R for that year.
2018-04-05 03:21, By: dlzallestaxes, IP: [184.108.40.206]
L15: Starting my 72t in 2018
And you have confirmed that your 401k plan allows you to take partial distributions, correct? You should also ask them what documentation they require from you to acknowledge that your distributions are SEPP distributions. This is important if you do not want 20% mandatory withholding taken out of your distribution. 20% federal withholding is mandatory for eligible rollover distributions (ERDs), but not mandatory for SEPP distributions because by definition they are not eligible for rollover. Depends on how your plan to pay your taxes.
Note that interest rates are climbing, so the May rate will probably be higher than April’s. You can use the May rate if you wish, and can still use the plan balance from the date you planned because the date of the plan balance does not have to be synced up to the interest rate month. Finally, for flexibility you have the option to make a one time switch to the RMD method, and that will reduce your distribution by perhaps 1/3. For example, if you need less money come 2021, you would use the 12/31/2020 balance and probably IRS RMD table I to determine your 2021 distribution. Of course, this will require a new calculation each year, so you would have to be sure to do that right if you wanted to reduce your distribution to preserve your IRA assets.
The 401k plan may or may not code your 1099R with code 2. If not you will have to file Form 5329 annually with your return to apply exception code 02 to the distribution.
2018-04-05 16:04, By: Alan S, IP: [220.127.116.11]
L16: Starting my 72t in 2018
Alan – I did verify with Vanguard that I can take partial distributions out of my 401K. That 401K was from my previous employer. No need to roll it over to a Vanguard IRA to do them. I just called Vanguard this AM to triple-check. They still recommend having a tax advisor (not them) walk me through the process. Obviously, they don’t know how hard that has proven to be!
On the form Vanguard sent I can ask for no Federal Tax withholding. They do not code the 1099R, as you say. I will have to do a 5329 to articulate that it is an SEPP draw. The latest statement I have from Vanguard is for the quarter that ended on 12/31/2017. I suspect that the one for Q1 2018 will arrive by the 3rd week of April. The one ending on March 2018 is about $5K higher in balance. I guess I could wait for that one to arrive if necessary.
Once again THANK YOU FOR YOUR INPUT!!
2018-04-05 16:30, By: Rickyrod1, IP: [18.104.22.168]
L17: Starting my 72t in 2018
You seem to be disciplined enough to provide for setting aside money to file estimated taxes on 4/15, 6/15, 9/15, and 1/15. Many people are not, and I recommend withholding taxes at the SEPP level.
Of course, if someone is taking the full annual distribution every January, this would be a significant amount. I usually prefer monthly or quarterly distributions because most people “need” the money because they do not have other resources, and I am always afraid that they will spend all of the money, and then not have the money to pay the estimates. Then they want to take more from the SEPP at some time before it ends, which has disasterous results RETROACTIVELY imposing the 10% penalty on ALL distributions from the beginning !!!
2018-04-05 17:16, By: dlzallestaxes, IP: [22.214.171.124]
L18: Starting my 72t in 2018
Thanks again for your inputdlzallestaxes!! Given what I have shared, and with no desire to be a burden, how will you adjust the draw schedule I previously did? Amounts, frequency, timing? I am open to ideas. You are right, I will have no problems setting taxes aside or paying the taxes from my non-401K accounts (regular banking and Vanguard investment). For that reason I thought that doing in one single annual draw and manage my budget accordingly was a simple way to do my SEPP. Of course, simplicity is not always genius!
DOB – Sep 12, 1964
?? – Do I need to draw in 2024?
2018-04-05 18:09, By: Rickyrod1, IP: [126.96.36.199]
L19: Starting my 72t in 2018
At a 22% tax rate, you are probably talking about $ 3,500 estimates 4 times a year on the SEPP distributions. I don’t know the rest of your tax situation, but I would doubt that you will have any problem including that amount with the estimated taxes for the rest of your income. I would pay the quarterly estimates, and calculate after 12/31 the best amount to send by 1/15 of each following year.
2018-04-05 21:38, By: dlzallestaxes, IP: [188.8.131.52]
L20: Starting my 72t in 2018
Appreciateddlzallestaxes!! I am hoping to end with a draw table schedule I can use. Your feedback is helpful! Trying to stay away from the dark side of IRS!!
2018-04-05 22:01, By: Rickyrod1, IP: [184.108.40.206]
L21: Starting my 72t in 2018
Has your company been using Vanguard for a while on the 401(k)? I only ask because if they ever switch to another company, you need to be careful about any blackout periods, especially at the end of the year, so you don’t bust your plan due to not being able to access your funds. Just something to think about. And check that your plan allows for partial distributions.
2018-04-08 04:54, By: brkr12002, IP: [220.127.116.11]
L20: Starting my 72t in 2018
Getting ready to send all my paperwork to Vanguard tomorrow. One last question – I am inclined to do 1 yearly draw starting on 6/15/2018. Any good reason to increase the frequency to twice a year, quarterly or monthly? I like the clean, 1 draw, done deal, aspect of the yearly approach. Thanks in advance!!
2018-05-07 20:20, By: Rickyrod1, IP: [18.104.22.168]
L21: Starting my 72t in 2018
If you take it annually, then you must be very disciplined to not spend it all too early. You also must be careful not to terminate your plan until 60 months+ after you start, i.e. don’t take anything extra until after that date.
Also, you have to decide if you are going to have taxes withheld, or file estimates quarterly.
One key aspect for 2018 is what your tax situation will look like in 2018, and whether or not to take 100% your annual distribution in 2018, or prorata based upon your starting month. This is as much a tax aspect as it is a cash flow aspect.
Most people are better off taking distributions monthly or quarterly for these reasons.
2018-05-07 20:31, By: dlzallestaxes, IP: [22.214.171.124]
L22: Starting my 72t in 2018
Thanks again for your feedback!! You are always a few steps ahead! Below are my comments:
I am pretty good at budgeting and for that reason I thought about doing an annual draw. My draw amount came to be $16,879.41 and I wanted to be “to the penny” with IRS.
Unless I have to go back to work, I am under the impression that I will not be paying much, if any, taxes for 2018, 2019, etc. I have no problem letting Vanguard keep 10% for IRS and request them back during tax filing. My first thought was NO tax deductions since I probably won’t have to pay much or anything. My first draw will be requested for June 2018. I will reach 59.5 on March 12, 2024. My thoughts were to start with $16,879.41 on June 2018 and take the last one on June 2024 to play it safe. If I don’t need to take a draw on 2014, that will be OK too.
I certainly appreciate your thoughtful responses! You are a wealth of knowledge for sure!
2018-05-07 21:41, By: Rickyrod1, IP: [126.96.36.199]
L23: Starting my 72t in 2018
If you spoke to a tax professional or experienced financial advisor, they would tell you that you are wasting a valuable tax planning opportunity.
I would suggest to you if you were my client that you consider doing ROTH CONVERSIONS to the extent that they were taxable in the 12% tax bracket and possibly even the 22% bracket. We can’t give you any more ideas because you have not indicated if you were married, and did not indicate if you had any other taxable income.
By doing what I call ” PLANNING DURING RETIREMENT”, you could defer your SS benefits until 70 1/2. That would result in a 75% increase over age 62, or 32% over age 66. The more that you would then take out of your IRA by CONVERSION at 12%, it would reduce further taxable income, and reduce the tax on your SS benefits (of which only 85% is taxable at the most, and possibly at -0-).
The “free advice” you get here may be expensive compared to extra taxes you could pay in the long range without PLANNING !!!
2018-05-07 22:01, By: dlzallestaxes, IP: [188.8.131.52]
L24: Starting my 72t in 2018
Dlzallestaxes thanks again for your candid feedback! I did discussed the Roth conversions with my CPA, but waiting 5 years to draw without penalties was not an option. I am married, 53 (DOB 9/12/1964) and my wife just turned 48 (DOB 3/26/1970). We have 2 dependents. My income will be my SEPP amount of$16,879.41 and whatever I use from my savings and after tax investment accounts to stay with a $32K annual budget. We are virtually debt free. I estimate that my taxable income will be around $40K for 2018 and $22K to $24K for 2019 and forward. I guess that I can live with my annual draw and manage my budget. I have roughly $130K on my savings and investment accounts.
2018-05-08 00:22, By: Rickyrod1, IP: [2605:6000:120a:423b:0:d14e:6f55:407c]
L25: Starting my 72t in 2018
I suggest that you get a new CPA or a financial advisor (which is different from an investment advisor).
The 12% tax bracket goes up to $ 74,000 in 2018 for a joint tax return. When you add the new Standard Deduction of $ 24,000, that means you can have have Gross Income of $ 98,000 in the 12% tax bracket. In addition, Qualified Dividends, Capital Gain Dividends from Mutual Funds, and Long-Term Capital Gains from the Sale of Investments are all taxed at a -0- federal income tax rate. Further, there is a Child Tax Credit of $2,000 for each child under 17, or $ 500 for each one over 17. If they go to college, there is the American Education Opportunity Tax Credit (AOTC) of $ 2,500 per student. In the 12% federal income tax bracket, tax credits are the equivalent of 8.33 times those amounts if they were deductions. This means that the $ 2,000 Child Tax Credits offset the tax liability of $16,660 of taxable income, and the $ 2,500 AOTC plus $ 500 Child Tax Credit = $ 3,000 will offset the taxes on $ 25,000 of taxable income from ROTH CONVERSIONS while they are in college.
If you convert $ 55,000 in 2018 to your ROTH IRA, and $ 75,000 a year until you are 59 1/2, you will have converted all of your IRA to a ROTH at 12%, and you, your wife, and your 2 children will be able to use the ROTH TAX-FREE for the rest of all of your lives.
In addition, you can probably defer your SS benefits until 70 1/2, and that will be your only taxable income, which will also mean that will be TAX FREE as well for the rest of your life and your wife’s.
If you own a home, you can use a home equity loan from age 60-70, when you start your SS benefits. Whenever you sell your home, the proceeds will be TAX FREE up to $ 500,000 of profit in excess of your cost basis (i.e. if the cost was $ 250,000 you could sell it for $ 750,000, and owe no federal income taxes). Then you can invest those proceeds TAX FREE also !!!!
2018-05-08 04:55, By: dlzallestaxes, IP: [184.108.40.206]
L26: Starting my 72t in 2018
Once again – thanks a lot!! You are amazing and your feedback is fantastic. I can only wish you the very best!! What you are doing is fantastic and I am sure that many others, like me, appreciate your wisdom!
2018-05-08 17:17, By: Rickyrod1, IP: [220.127.116.11]
L27: Starting my 72t in 2018
Hi all, I’m also starting a 72t sepp this july2018. I’m not sure where to start . Born 1/10/1965. My 401k ($500k) is with Wells Fargo/ schwab. I know I’ve to convert to IRA then do 72t. My plan is to convert my job status from full time to per diem status ( without benefits) to supplement my 72t income.
2018-05-13 04:54, By: TedR, IP: [18.104.22.168]
L28: Starting my 72t in 2018
Please do not “hijack” another posting. Start your own posting with your own information so answers to your posting and the other posting are not intertwined.
2018-05-16 05:35, By: dlzallestaxes, IP: [22.214.171.124]
L25: Starting my 72t in 2018
RickyRod1, I was where you are a few years ago when I started my SEPP (except my kids are grown and out of the house now). I rolled over my TSP to a traditional IRA and eventually took my first draw using the amortization method in 2015. My interest rate was much lower back then–yielding a 4% draw for my age. Since then, I’ve decided to change to the RMD calculation method starting next year. As Alan S indicates, I can do this once and must stick to this change until my plan ends in 2023. I don’t need as much as i thought really. My initial thought then, was start paying my deferred taxes while I’m enjoying the 15% tax bracket with my wife (I’m retired now), for when I reach full SS age at 67, we’ll jump into a higher tax bracket (22% currently). So why not, I reasoned. Well, lord and behold, Congress passes tax legislation (temporary albeit) and lowered my bracket to 12% for 2018! This change motivated me to look into converting my IRA to a ROTH IRA. But I have an IRA SEPP in place now, I thought, so could I do this without penalty?
Turns out, if you read IRS Pub 590, you’ll see explicitly specified therein that a non-qualified distribution from a ROTH IRA (e.g., before the 5 years is up) as part of a SEPP plan, it is exempt from the penalty. This means, if you wanted to convert your ROTH as this thread discusses you could do so without penalty. In my case, I will convert my IRA in annual installments over 4-5 years. I’ll still take my annual SEPP payment from my traditional IRA until it’s insufficient to do so. If, by chance, I need to take any from my converted ROTH IRA the last year of my plan, i’m glad to know I can do so without penalty as well.
My 2-cents… Mike
2018-05-26 23:01, By: copleyma, IP: [2600:1700:c541:1490:1983:4866:dd35:ac60]
L26: Starting my 72t in 2018
Instead of starting your SS benefit at 66 or 67, look into deferring it to age 70. You will get 8% PER YEAR AUTOMATIC GUARANTEED increase FOR LIFE !!!! That’s 24% or 32% increase for you, and/or your wife, regardless who lives longer. And 15% of that increase will never be taxed !!!
2018-05-26 23:24, By: dlzallestaxes, IP: [126.96.36.199]
L27: Starting my 72t in 2018
Certainly waiting until age 70 yields a higher amount (over a shorter amount of years). In reality, the formula for SS payout yields the same cumulative net present value whether one takes SS at age 62 or age 70, assuming one lives to the life expectancy used in the formula by SS. Typically breakeven is about 78 years old. Understanding that the actuary tables used by the SSA were last updated in 1983 and believing that people are living longer on whole beyond the actuary life expectancies used, it would make sense to wait until I’m 70 (assuming my health holds) and financial circumstances dictate. As a married guy, I want to ensure my non-working wife gets the maximum survivor benefit off my earnings record when we’re joint grey heads, so age 67 is the earliest I’m shooting for; any later than that would be a bonus.
Other than health reasons or financial conditions changing, one part of me–today–is take the money sooner than later and go tick off the bucket list some. I mean, how motivated will we be to do all those kinds of things when we’re 70? It’s a question we all must face someday.
Appreciate the sentiment in your comment thought. Cheers, mac
2018-05-28 13:55, By: copleyma, IP: [2600:1700:c541:1490:bc5e:279b:b54d:db2]
L28: Starting my 72t in 2018
The break-even age is now 84. However, statistically, for a married couple, one of you will live into the 90’s.
If your wife worked, start hers at 62 or 67, but defer yours until 70 because between the two of you, you will collect for 20+ years.
And don’t forget that 15% of SS benefits are not taxed.
2018-05-29 04:23, By: dlzallestaxes, IP: [188.8.131.52]
L29: Starting my 72t in 2018
Little known option for collecting SS benefits…
When we retired, I took my SS benefit at 63. When my wife reached her normal retirement, instead of taking her benefit, she took 50% of my benefit. Then last year at 69, she switched from my benefit to 100% of her own benefit. This works even better than merely deferring one of the benefits to age 70.
2018-05-29 07:13, By: Gfw, IP: [184.108.40.206]
L30: Starting my 72t in 2018
This depends upon your respective ages and earnings histories, and that determines your respective SS benefits at different ages. If the husband’s earnings history is significantly higher, which is usually the case (especially since most women have fewer than 35 work years, and therefore have some or many -0- earning years), then that approach may not work for many couples, and will not work for single taxpayers.
2018-05-29 20:00, By: dlzallestaxes, IP: [220.127.116.11]
L26: Starting my 72t in 2018
Thanks for sharing Mike! That is all great information!
My best to you!
2018-05-29 23:51, By: Rickyrod1, IP: [2605:6000:120a:605a:0:d14e:6f55:407c]
L3: Starting my 72t in 2018
3.27% is a valid mid-term (120%) maximum rate for starting a SEPP in the month of May and Jun 2018.
2018-05-26 21:55, By: copleyma, IP: [2600:1700:c541:1490:1983:4866:dd35:ac60]
L4: Starting my 72t in 2018
Correct! That is exactly what I used. I have submitted all my paperwork with Vanguard and the first SEPP payment comes in mid-June. Looking good.
Thanks for sharing!
2018-05-29 23:55, By: Rickyrod1, IP: [2605:6000:120a:605a:0:d14e:6f55:407c]